president tried to get him on that on the $5 trillion tax cut thing. i'm not sure he effectively pinned him down on that though the obama campaign was spinning that they did. >> i think they made a mistake on that issue, the obama people did, by going with the $5 trillion. because that, you know, policy wonks can debate whether it amounts to $5 trillion or not. what they can't debate, it's a 20% tax reduction for the wealthiest americans. that is a plain irrefutable fact and if they used that, it would, first of all, explain more what this is, which is a tax cut for the wealthy which was one of several points the president wasn't able to actually convey in a clear way. and would also be, you know, be on dispute factually. >> and when a -- sorry, go ahead. >> no. >> when paul ryan spoke at the republican convention, the first reaction was, wow, young fresh guy, so handsome. you know, there's like -- an immediate positive response. later that night, that same evening in the same news cycle, the sort of second breath response was, wow, there are a lot of